If only people praised and worshiped God the way they do Michael Jackson…what a difference it would make. Quote from his memorial…”the King of Pop is now bending his knee to the King of Kings”…ummmm really? He was raised Jehovah Witness, turned Muslim and embraced Judaism to an extent. Christ follower? Don’t know, but don’t see it. So why try and make him one?
In Revelation 2 to the church of Ephesus and chapter 3 to the Church of Lodicea, the Lord makes it clear that while they (Ephesus) was praised for their good works, had abandoned their first love, Jesus Christ. In Lodicea, they were neither hot or cold. The Lord told them, because of the luke-warmness, that He would spit them out of his mouth.
I think it is easy for us as Christians to identify with Christ as the miracle worker, love giver, truth teller…but few are willing to identify with him in his sufferings. (Philippians 3:10) In other words, when Christ taught in Nazereth, many became offended. Luke 4:24-29, not another success story. He was beaten, whipped and crucified for speaking truth. The apostles in most cases were beaten and executed for their faith. Christians by the thousands were thrown to the lions in Rome or treated as outcasts for their profession of faith in Jesus. It seems though that all of that history becomes forgotten when people today are identifying themselves with Christ.
It feels as though we have abandoned the fullness of Christ’s teachings to pursue being accepted by those we are called to reach. We have given people more reason to see the Church as a carbon copy of what they can get for free in the world without an offering plate. Reading through the material on the web, when Michael Jackson died, rumors of him becoming a Christian became the perfect pep pill needed for Christians who wanted to appear relevant. Yet when he was accused of child molestation, I didn’t read much about those same Christians naming him as one of their own.
Of course, like you, I want to be liked and loved by everyone..but I think it is time for the church to dust itself off and stop this quest to be liked by the world. John 15:18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first”. If you are a true follower of Christ and His teaching, you will be hated by the world, not blend into it. We are to be separate. Speaking the truth of God’s Word, will set people free..I believe it is worth the cost.
*******UPDATE******
(This actually took longer than I thought….)
http://www.gigwise.com/news/51576/Michael-Jacksons-Face-Appears-On-Tree-Stump-In-California—Photos
Posted by b4dguy on July 9, 2009 at 1:32 pm
I’m not really sure how you are connecting Michael Jackson’s death to the collective church abandoning its first love, being lukewarm, being unwilling to partake in His suffering, and wanting too much to be liked by the world.
That notwithstanding, the things you are saying about the church are very true – for the North American/Western church. There are indeed many believers today being martyred for their beliefs – you just have to consider other parts of the world. It’s in the U.S. that the church has become largely irrelevant; that it has lost its voice.
“If you are a true follower of Christ and His teaching, you will be hated by the world, not blend into it. We are to be separate.”
I wholeheartedly disagree. Paul said, “Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.” [1 Cor. 9:19-23]
One might describe this behavior as Paul being a chameleon or two-faced. He absolutely was blending with whatever group of people he was proselytizing (sp?).
Where I think followers of the Christ should appear different than the world (but sadly the worldly often do a better job at this) is by being caring, compassionate – in short….loving.
Whether Michael Jackson had a relationship with God or not I do not know. But I do know that the Gospel was proclaimed at his memorial service, and that service was seen by tens of millions all over the world. MJ had love and compassion for the world – that we as Believers should step back and recognize. Either it was a profane waste of his time, or maybe he had a relationship with the Father that was not readily apparent.
Who knows?
My daughter told me that MJ is in the Guinness Book of World Records for having given to more charitable organizations than any other celebrity. Most Christians I know can’t even cough up the tithe…
I just think it’s embarrassing to the “C”hurch to have someone that may not have known the Savior to be so Christ-like. Maybe that’s why people are saying “enough already”???
Posted by Debs on July 9, 2009 at 2:00 pm
Are you arguing with me Badguy? I’m shocked!
“I’m not really sure how you are connecting Michael Jackson’s death to the collective church abandoning its first love, being lukewarm, being unwilling to partake in His suffering, and wanting too much to be liked by the world.”
Then I didn’t convey it correctly. As I said, in Ephesus they were praised for their good works (just like you did here for MJ) yet they had abandoned their first love. I see that in just about any biography I read about him. In Lodicia, they were lukewarm…scripture tells us this is not a good thing either…to me (and I’m stickin’ to it) Michael, at times had a form of godliness (pick a religion) yet denied his power….hopefully it’s getting where I intended it to go in the first place. I think all any Jackson wants is to conform to and be liked by the world…then take it all the way to the bank.
“you just have to consider other parts of the world.” I am very well aware of the rest of the world on several different levels and for several different reasons, but since I live in America, I was focused on this country….I agree…many in other countries are killed daily for their faith…willingly.
“I wholeheartedly disagree. ” Good, and I love the scripture you quoted. BUT, we are called to be set apart from the world.
I know you like the OT so lets go there. Wordliness was a constant problem of Israel. Though God taught His people to be separate from other people (Leviticus 20:26) when they consorted with the pagans, God sent prophtes to condemn them for their evil associations. (Isaiah 30:1-17) Sonce Israel was called to be God’s “peculiar treasure” and His “holy nation” (Exodus 19:5-6) the people were to reflect that holy calling in their lives (Deuteronomy 7:1-11) God sent judgment upon Israel when they apostatized from the Word of God and worshipped the gods of the heathen so that they became like the heathen (II Kings 17:6-8) followed their practices, and even intermarried with them (Judges 3:5-8) In contrast to this pagan association and lifestyle, Psalm 11 promises blessing to those who do not associate with the wicked, and Proverbs has much to say about avoiding evil men…try 4:14-19.
The apostle Paul commands believers not to be unequally yoked together with unbelievers (6:14). Paul is not simply giving good advice—he is declaring the command of the Lord: “Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord” (6:17). He goes on to urge, “Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God” (7:1). The doctrine of separation is grounded in the holiness of God. Christians have to be separate from the world because God is separate from all sin. Believers have to be be separate from sin and worldliness in order to be separated for God.
Look at 1 Corinthians 5….how does that compare to the verses you quoted…there just has to be more to it. I appreciate your whole-heartedness, but I disagree…
Posted by b4dguy on July 9, 2009 at 2:38 pm
What book are you quoting above? you have 6:14, 6:17 but no reference…
Leah asks, “How do you evangelize the world with a doctrine of separation? They seem mutually exclusive.”
(doctrine – there’s that pesky word again…)
More later – just got the call to dinner.
Posted by Debs on July 9, 2009 at 3:05 pm
2 Corinthians…..tell Leah she has to type her own questions….LOL (kidding)
I believe there is a difference between giving the gospel to a non-believer and and giving the gospel with a non-believer. The first is evangelism, the second a compromise. I think that God has put a difference between the saved and unsaved and wants it to be apparent. He is specific in many places in the Bible, Righteousness/Unrighteousness, ligh/dark, Christ/Belial, believer/infidel, temple of God/Idols. In the 2 Corinth. passage, there is to be no fellowship, communion, or agreement….that clear line between true and false Christianity has to be maintained…compare Luke 16:26. Here are some more….2 John 10-11, Romans 16:17, Titus 3:10, Galatians 16-9, (doctrine) and another doctrine verse (1 Timothy 1:3) Am I going to talk and share with non-believers? Of course! Everyday if the opportunity presents itself…but bad character corrupts.
Posted by Born4Battle on July 10, 2009 at 3:44 am
The responses to the passing of Michael Jackson have been the most disgusting display of idolatry we have seen in recent years, but there have been others. there will probably be more.
Concerning Paul, using his ability to convey the Gospel of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ to all sorts of people to decry separation, and justify being ‘of’ the wold but not ‘in’ it verges on blasphemy and slanders Paul.
Paul could communicate the gospel to anyone, from common folks to the intellectual elite of his day. In EVERY case he took the conversation to the simple Gospel of the death and resurrection of Christ for our sins.
Deb: “If you are a true follower of Christ and His teaching, you will be hated by the world, not blend into it. We are to be separate.”
Bad: “I wholeheartedly disagree.”
Well, Bad, you are arguing not so much with Deb, but with God and all that the OT and NT have to say about being sanctified IN the world, set apart from the “world’s system” and sin, and separated unto God. Note I said OT AND NT. The difference is the covenantal perspectives – law v. grace. They both scream ’separation’ for the people of God.
Inder the covenant of grace, we not only are to be “behaviorally’ different, we have the very power of God inside us (the Holy Spirit) that will can “will AND do of God’s good pleasure”.
There are all sorts of people who do good for others on many levels, and statistics show that church folks do more en toto than anyone else.
The problem with the “C”hurch (Whatever “C” means) isn’t that “they” should be ‘more’ caring and those outside the church do more. It is quite the opposite.
Your position (and you have a lot of company) telegraphs a misunderstanding of the both the Gospel message and the role and power of the Holy Spirit in the salvation of sinners and the progressive sanctification of ’saints’.
I understand your “wholeheartedness”, but I can’t say I appreciate it. Your apparent dislike of sanctification spits in the face of the risen Christ.
Posted by b4dguy on July 10, 2009 at 5:34 am
why did my comment end up at the top of the list???
also, I cannot make sense of your statement above: “I believe there is a difference between giving the gospel to a non-believer and and giving the gospel with a non-believer.”
???
Posted by Debs on July 10, 2009 at 7:31 am
Hi Bad:
If you go to the bottom, your comment will end up on top, if you hit reply to the nearest comment to whatever thread we’re on, it will stay in order…it’s weird that way.
In my comment that you questioned, there is a difference between witnessing to a non-believer and hangin’ with them.
Posted by Debs on July 10, 2009 at 9:09 am
Badguy, let me ask you something. Everything we do and say always boils down to the gospel message. I think everything else can be said to be secondary to that. When do you make them aware of their condition without Christ, His sacrificial death for their sin, and their need to repent and believe. When do you, which is also scriptural, shake the dust from your shoes, and walk away when they want nothing to do with you or your God?
Posted by b4dguy on July 10, 2009 at 9:15 am
this reply thing is totally confusing. whatever happened to the comments being in order?
at any rate – “there is a difference between witnessing to a non-believer and hangin’ with them” – this is the heart of our disagreement. I say any interaction we have with anyone is witnessing. Period. I guess you need to define witness in the context of your statement. Do you mean “proclaiming” or “sharing testimony” or “proselytizing” or something else?
Witnessing isn’t something you do or don’t do; turn-on or turn off; it’s our very existence and presence in the world. We are lights after all.
Posted by Debs on July 10, 2009 at 9:25 am
There is a comment on the bottom, grr, I agree any interaction we have is witnessing, at what point do we stop? And yes I believe there has to come a point when we stop…I don’t know how to change the comment set up…
Posted by b4dguy on July 10, 2009 at 9:42 am
Hey Dan – long time no talk. How ya’ been?
Whew. where to start…let’s work backwards.
Sanctification and the doctrine of separation are two different things (I’d mention that to you too Debs). I’m trying to talk about a [bad] church teaching of being separate from the world — you guys keep slipping over into a discussion of sanctification. “Set apart” and “separate” are two different things.
When I say “C”hurch I mean the universal collective of the body of believers – not a specific denomination, or congregation. The OT and NT scream of the good news of the overwhelming love God has for His creation, and His willingness to send His son the Christ to die in our place for the payment of our sin. The OT and NT scream out a love story of how God views His people as special and set apart to Himself.
B4B: I see you wisely didn’t DENY that they both speak loudly of being separate (from and for).
I’m not sure where you get the idea that I am trying to justify being ‘of’ the world but not ‘in’ it? Quite the opposite is what I am talking about. That is, to be ‘in’ the world and not ‘of’ it – like Jesus expected of us.
B4B: That was my dislexic typo. I’m sure you know what I meant.
We are indeed meant to be different; and at some level we should not “fit in” – but that does not mean that we cloister ourselves or don’t hang around “those kind of people” – it means we respond differently to the people we encounter as we are going into all the world and being in it. I believe the difference is in our attitudes and our motives – not in our dress, speech, or personal hygiene habits.
B4B: Staw man alert? I don’t see anything in my comment about NOT doing specific things or modes of dress or personal hygiene. There are sound scriptural principals to be applied in those areas, but I didn’t even go there.
Michael Jackson died suddenly and at a relatively young age. He is and was a huge pop star and is being mourned by tens of millions of people. I do not see mourning as idolatry. Are there people that idolize MJ? Yes. Does that mean they worship him as a god? Maybe some do.
B4B: Much mourning, yes. If yuo can’t see the idolatry in all of it (a lot like Elvis worship) you have blinders on – reallly thick ones.
Dan – you were in the military. Did you ever salute an officer? Idolatry. Do you salute the flag? Idolatry. Did you take an oath to uphold and defend the constitution? Idolatry.
B4B: That clears things up a bit. If you think those are ‘idolatry’ you just don’t understand the meaning of the word.
I don’t think that these actions are idolatrous – I am saying that they could be interpreted as idolatrous – just as many are apparently seeing idolatry in the mourning of the passing of Michael Jackson.
I think the term ‘Idolatry’ and Michael has to do a lot more than the just the funeral. Did you miss that?
Jesus certainly acted differently when he encountered a crowd of people mourning the death of one of his friends. He simply wept. How bizarre is that.
B4B: His tears were about more than just the death of his friend, but I won’t go there just now. Somehow I think if Jesus had appeared at M.J.s funeral, his response might have been different that at Lazarus’.
Posted by b4dguy on July 10, 2009 at 9:51 am
That’s actually two questions.
I make them aware of their condition without Christ when the Holy Spirit tells me to say something about it. That is, if I’m listening. There are times when I’ve said too much, there are times when I’ve said too little. There are times when I’ve done the wrong thing, acted poorly, or have simply ignored the needs. There are also times when I have responded to the needs, when I have acted according to the commands of the Christ.
When do I shake the dust from my shoes? Probably long after I should – because I care for and love the lost people I have a really hard time giving up on them.
It’s not really up to me to make the determination of when and how to speak or act – I can only follow the direction of Scripture and the example that the Christ and his followers presented to us in the NT.
I want to be the one to tell people the Gospel message. I want to be the one to kneel and pray with them to receive the precious gift of salvation. I also don’t want to be a hindrance or stumbling block to anyone. I don’t want a millstone tied around my neck. I don’t want to be the reason that people scoff and say, “If that’s what it means to be a Christian then I don’t want anything to do with it.”
Ultimately, though, it’s not about me or what I want. It’s about God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. He gets to do what he wants, and occasionally I’m privileged enough to be the mouthpiece of the vessel by which His gospel message is received by a lost soul. I am grateful for those moments; I long for more of them. But again, it’s not about me.
Posted by b4dguy on July 10, 2009 at 6:04 pm
How was Dan able to comment within my comment? And why is there no longer a ‘Reply’ at the end of it?
Dan – PROOFREAD your work, please…
“Staw man alert”
“Scriptural principals”
“his response might have been different that at Lazarus”
To be clear – I do not believe the OT or the NT screams of separation. There I said it.
Are you even familiar with the doctrine of separation? It has MUCH to do (for many denominations) about style of dress, speech habits, personal hygiene/beautification, eating and drinking habits, entertainment, even allegiance to the government. That’s the topic – please stick to it.
If there is a lack of understanding of the meaning of a word…define it. That’s a pretty simple task.
What makes you think that Jesus (God, the Holy Spirit) wasn’t at MJ’s funeral??? His name was certainly proclaimed, and I’d wager that at least two or three were there in His name…
Posted by Born4Battle on July 10, 2009 at 6:55 pm
“To be clear – I do not believe the OT or the NT screams of separation. There I said it.”
Yes you did…and confessed to not having read much of it either. “separation and holiness” are very significant topics in both.
Actually I have been researching the doctrine of separation of late. I also know it has to do with things you mentioned, which can be taken to extremes, ala the ‘perfectionist’ holiness/fundamentalist movement of late 19th century America.
Are YOU really familiar with the doctrine of separation? In the multiple works I have collected that specifically and in much detail define biblical ’separation’ I am having a real hard time finding the specific terms you so graciously listed above. They all seem to address certain sorts of ‘people’ or ‘organizations’
You seem to be stuck on the ‘extreme’ definition that dictates specific behaviour where there is actually more freedom. It sounds that way anyhow, in here and from previous discussions.
Stick to the topic? This post began along the lines of ‘idolatry’. It did take a detour along the way, but it didn’t start there.
Your spiritual arrogance and condescending attitude are showing again, Bad…..not good…..do you talk down to everyone this way?
And the bold thing in the middle of your comment…..I do it because I can, and it’s easier to address your ‘interesting’ insights and obfuscations in close proximity.
Apologies in advance for any typo’s.
Posted by b4dguy on July 10, 2009 at 7:55 pm
If you’ve been studying the doctrine of separation, can you throw up a link or site or summary of the doctrine of separation? Origins? Who first taught it, and why? In your studies, have you discovered the difference between sanctification and the doctrine of separations?
“And the bold thing in the middle of your comment…..I do it because I can” – how? how do you do it? how were you able to edit my comment?
“Stick to the topic? This post began along the lines of ‘idolatry’.”
Maybe there were two topics squished into one post: maybe idolatry was what Debs had in mind at the beginning, but most of her post was directed at Believers and how they interact with the world – closing with the admonition to be separate (that is the word Debs used). Again, separate (the doctrine of separation) is different from being set apart – which is the topic of sanctification (and much the topic of the OT and NT). The doctrine of separation is the topic (or idolatry); not sanctification.
“Your spiritual arrogance and condescending attitude are showing again, Bad…..not good…..do you talk down to everyone this way?”
You mean like this?
“verges on blasphemy and slanders Paul”
“straw man alert”
“Your apparent dislike of sanctification spits in the face of the risen Christ”
“and confessed to not having read much of it either”
“it’s easier to address your ‘interesting’ insights and obfuscations”
…maybe I reacted poorly. Sorry.
Deb – any chance of splitting the topics?
Posted by b4dguy on July 10, 2009 at 8:07 pm
“I agree any interaction we have is witnessing, at what point do we stop? And yes I believe there has to come a point when we stop…”
Are you asking at what point do we stop interacting? I don’t think there is a set answer or guideline. Knowing when to call it quits requires discernment and probably a little trial and error. Relational evangelism requires that we enter the relationship with no expectations, and that we accept the friendship of the person regardless of their response to the Gospel. That’s hard to do – because none of us are very good at approaching anything without some motive or expectation (good or bad).
Does Jesus have anything to say about it? I wonder if the parable of the lost sheep has anything to do with knowing when (or when not) to call it quits. Leaving 99 to look for 1 just doesn’t make a whole lot of sense does it?
Posted by Born4Battle on July 11, 2009 at 6:51 am
Bad, RE: Your comment requesting detailed information, etc. I had a quite lengthy reply prepared that errored when I tried to send it. Maybe it’s a sign. I don’t have another coupple of hours to reapply to the task. I did not provide the requested information, so if you are waiting for it, so that you can once again say “I never heard of those guys and I don’t agree with them”, just google ‘doctrine of separation’ and you will have some really thorough data on the matter at hand.
Besides, didn’t one of your previous comments communicate to us that you were already an expert? Hmmmmm
Posted by Debs on July 11, 2009 at 4:05 pm
“Jesus Christ did not say, ‘Go into the world and tell the world that it is quite right.” CS Lewis….
Posted by Born4Battle on July 11, 2009 at 4:24 pm
Maybe because the world is a mess?
Posted by Debs on July 11, 2009 at 6:09 pm
If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.” (John 15:19)
“I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.” (John 17:14)
“Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.” (James 1:27)
“Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world – the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life – is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.” (1 John 2:15)
“Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.” (James 4:4)
Posted by Born4Battle on July 11, 2009 at 7:30 pm
Are we saying that a believer (James was addressing believers) can be God’s enemy? Good question….